Criticisms of the Shivan Manifesto - Revision history

TopAce at 09:57, 23 July 2011

2011-07-23T09:57:29Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:57, 23 July 2011
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	*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.		*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.

	[[Category:Shivan ~~Theories~~\|Shivan Manifesto, criticisms of the]]		[[Category:Shivan theories\|Shivan Manifesto, criticisms of the]]

Mobius: Fixed a couple of links to GTI Tombaugh and Into The Lion's Den, respectively

2009-03-24T19:32:41Z

Fixed a couple of links to GTI Tombaugh and Into The Lion's Den, respectively

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:32, 24 March 2009
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	*Omits details of Bosch's reasoning for contacting the Shivans; namely his contact with GTI research (fighting the ''[[Silent Threat]]'' rebellion) and specifically information arising from GTI interaction with live Shivan captives.		*Omits details of Bosch's reasoning for contacting the Shivans; namely his contact with GTI research (fighting the ''[[Silent Threat]]'' rebellion) and specifically information arising from GTI interaction with live Shivan captives.
	*Highly assumptive of first contact between Bosch and the Shivans; namely assumes that a communication (enough to convince Bosch of a 'tentative alliance') somehow occurred with a translation error that allowed a conversation to appear perfectly logical to both sides, yet carry an entirely different and consistent meaning. This type of consistency of meaning is incredibly unlikely for a translation; moreover it fails to explain how the Shivans knew the precise arrangements of the docking and how to identify command crew upon the [[NTF Iceni\|''Iceni'']].		*Highly assumptive of first contact between Bosch and the Shivans; namely assumes that a communication (enough to convince Bosch of a 'tentative alliance') somehow occurred with a translation error that allowed a conversation to appear perfectly logical to both sides, yet carry an entirely different and consistent meaning. This type of consistency of meaning is incredibly unlikely for a translation; moreover it fails to explain how the Shivans knew the precise arrangements of the docking and how to identify command crew upon the [[NTF Iceni\|''Iceni'']].
	*Assumes the Shivans attempted to rescue prisoners of war as a motivation for boarding the ''Iceni''. This has never occurred in FreeSpace history; the only known example of Shivans journeying to captured Shivan specimens resulted in the destruction of the [[SC Taranis\|SC ''Taranis'']] and [[Tombaugh station]] - i.e. killing the captured Shivans rather than attempting rescue.		*Assumes the Shivans attempted to rescue prisoners of war as a motivation for boarding the ''Iceni''. This has never occurred in FreeSpace history; the only known example of Shivans journeying to captured Shivan specimens resulted in the destruction of the [[SC Taranis\|SC ''Taranis'']] and [[FreeSpace 1 Ship Database#GTI Tombaugh\|Tombaugh station]] - i.e. killing the captured Shivans rather than attempting rescue.
	*Over-emphasizes Bosch's 'love of humanity' comment; assumes Bosch would not want the Shivans to kill the ''Iceni'' crew, yet this is the same Bosch as masterminded a rebellion costing thousands of lives; and all this for a diversion.		*Over-emphasizes Bosch's 'love of humanity' comment; assumes Bosch would not want the Shivans to kill the ''Iceni'' crew, yet this is the same Bosch as masterminded a rebellion costing thousands of lives; and all this for a diversion.
	*Assumes the size and nature of the [[ETAK]] device; and whether or not it was reproducible by the (highly-advanced) Shivans. Presumes manual communication is impossible, even though this would be a circumstance anticipated by Bosch if he was to meet the Shivans face-to-face (so to speak). Also makes a false comparison between 1940's computers and the ETAK device; namely that in the FS2 universe it would be impossible to make a portable prototype, despite the centuries in the future this represents (also, it has been suggested by [[Volition]] employees that nanotechnology is possible in FS era, and thus so would be extreme miniaturization). Additionally, this assumes ETAK is a primarily physical device, rather than a software program driving existing technology.		*Assumes the size and nature of the [[ETAK]] device; and whether or not it was reproducible by the (highly-advanced) Shivans. Presumes manual communication is impossible, even though this would be a circumstance anticipated by Bosch if he was to meet the Shivans face-to-face (so to speak). Also makes a false comparison between 1940's computers and the ETAK device; namely that in the FS2 universe it would be impossible to make a portable prototype, despite the centuries in the future this represents (also, it has been suggested by [[Volition]] employees that nanotechnology is possible in FS era, and thus so would be extreme miniaturization). Additionally, this assumes ETAK is a primarily physical device, rather than a software program driving existing technology.
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	*Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from [[Capella]] to [[Vega]] and [[Epsilon Pegasi]]; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non-juggernaut) forces. It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the [[SJ Sathanas\|Sathanas juggernauts]] and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.		*Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from [[Capella]] to [[Vega]] and [[Epsilon Pegasi]]; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non-juggernaut) forces. It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the [[SJ Sathanas\|Sathanas juggernauts]] and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.
	*Assumes the Sathanas juggernauts cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through one or more unstable nodes.		*Assumes the Sathanas juggernauts cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through one or more unstable nodes.
	*Massively assumption over the purpose of [[Shivan Comm Node]]s. Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself. Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the [[Lion's Den]] mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed). This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 Sathanas juggernauts might just have been needed for the Capella star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).		*Massively assumption over the purpose of [[Shivan Comm Node]]s. Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself. Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the [[Into the Lion's Den]] mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed). This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 Sathanas juggernauts might just have been needed for the Capella star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).
	*Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a ''Sathanas''-type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVA's tactics for attacking such a vessel. It's worth noting that the 2nd time the ''Colossus'' encountered a ''Sathanas'', its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attacks.		*Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a ''Sathanas''-type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVA's tactics for attacking such a vessel. It's worth noting that the 2nd time the ''Colossus'' encountered a ''Sathanas'', its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attacks.
	*Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force. This is likely to be wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the [[Great War]], and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development. Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to [[NTF Rebellion\|rebellion]]. Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans acquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, ''et al.''. It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.		*Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force. This is likely to be wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the [[Great War]], and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development. Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to [[NTF Rebellion\|rebellion]]. Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans acquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, ''et al.''. It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.

Droid803: Sathanes???

2009-02-19T03:53:02Z

Sathanes???

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:53, 19 February 2009
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	*Assumes the Shivans would retreat from a large GTVA force rather than engage; especially given the previous attribution of the Shivans to be xenocidal and determined to 'defend' subspace. This would imply the Shivans are in fact just bullies, who run from any larger force rather than 'defend subspace'; assumes that leaving the GTVA to rebuild would be preferable for a race whose fight is for survival.		*Assumes the Shivans would retreat from a large GTVA force rather than engage; especially given the previous attribution of the Shivans to be xenocidal and determined to 'defend' subspace. This would imply the Shivans are in fact just bullies, who run from any larger force rather than 'defend subspace'; assumes that leaving the GTVA to rebuild would be preferable for a race whose fight is for survival.
	*Also assumes the Shivans would be somewhat stupid, in that it should be blatantly obvious the GTVA would not withhold such a large and war-winning force, especially when taking heavy losses in Capella. Any simple tactician would know it is nonsensical to sacrifice lives and territory if you have a war-winning advantage. This reasoning requires a high level of naivety from the Shivans.		*Also assumes the Shivans would be somewhat stupid, in that it should be blatantly obvious the GTVA would not withhold such a large and war-winning force, especially when taking heavy losses in Capella. Any simple tactician would know it is nonsensical to sacrifice lives and territory if you have a war-winning advantage. This reasoning requires a high level of naivety from the Shivans.
	*Assumes that the Shivans destroyed Capella to create an extremely large (physical dimensions) jump node, rather than the (Petrarch suggested) long distance node. This does not explain why the Shivans would sacrifice so many ships; effectively their entire non-~~Sathanes~~ fleet, as well as a number of the juggernauts. It's one thing to retreat - it's another to do so in a manner that loses a massive force, especially when you have a clear escape route ([[Gamma Draconis]])		*Assumes that the Shivans destroyed Capella to create an extremely large (physical dimensions) jump node, rather than the (Petrarch suggested) long distance node. This does not explain why the Shivans would sacrifice so many ships; effectively their entire non-Sathanas fleet, as well as a number of the juggernauts. It's one thing to retreat - it's another to do so in a manner that loses a massive force, especially when you have a clear escape route ([[Gamma Draconis]])
	*Largely relies upon the assumption of a Shivan hive mind and fight or flight response to justify retreat, where the 'flight' instinct is caused by irrational and unsupported fear. There is no evidence to suggest the Shivans think in this manner.		*Largely relies upon the assumption of a Shivan hive mind and fight or flight response to justify retreat, where the 'flight' instinct is caused by irrational and unsupported fear. There is no evidence to suggest the Shivans think in this manner.
	*Evidence of Shivan retreat is flawed; in all cited cases, the 'retreat' can be justified as simple tactics rather than the characterized 'fight or flight' response; a cruiser requiring resupply, a cruiser group attempting to combine forces with another, a destroyer protecting the weak rear of the first ''Sathanas''. None of these are also equatable to a full-scale retreat, being individual movements within a large scale offensive.		*Evidence of Shivan retreat is flawed; in all cited cases, the 'retreat' can be justified as simple tactics rather than the characterized 'fight or flight' response; a cruiser requiring resupply, a cruiser group attempting to combine forces with another, a destroyer protecting the weak rear of the first ''Sathanas''. None of these are also equatable to a full-scale retreat, being individual movements within a large scale offensive.
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	*Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan. This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond its creator. Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)		*Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan. This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond its creator. Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)
	*Another issue of living ships is that there is no explanation why these ships would be alive - could the non-corporeal Shivans harness an evolved living (space faring) animal? If not, how else could they acquire such a technology - given that they are as far physically and scientifically removed ('born' from non-relativistic space) from space life as possible (i.e. not genetic engineering - I would doubt an energy race has genes in any way equivalent to space biological animals).		*Another issue of living ships is that there is no explanation why these ships would be alive - could the non-corporeal Shivans harness an evolved living (space faring) animal? If not, how else could they acquire such a technology - given that they are as far physically and scientifically removed ('born' from non-relativistic space) from space life as possible (i.e. not genetic engineering - I would doubt an energy race has genes in any way equivalent to space biological animals).
	*Opts to dismiss the FS2 box text on very spurious grounds; namely by assuming a Shivan scout force (the ''Lucifer'' fleet) would be small, yet not considering what 'small' constitutes for a race as powerful as the Shivans. This also omits the concept of a scout force that is also permitted to attack an enemy when it has superior forces. For example, Force Recon forces perform both recon operations and destruction of key enemy installations; it's perfectly plausible the ''Lucifer'' fleet was tasked to identify a target, and then perform various combat actions (depending on the scale of threat posed by said target) intended to weaken or even defeat the enemy whilst a larger force was ~~enroute~~ (for example, the FS2 Shivan fleet; perhaps delayed by distance or caught behind an unexpected Knossos).		*Opts to dismiss the FS2 box text on very spurious grounds; namely by assuming a Shivan scout force (the ''Lucifer'' fleet) would be small, yet not considering what 'small' constitutes for a race as powerful as the Shivans. This also omits the concept of a scout force that is also permitted to attack an enemy when it has superior forces. For example, Force Recon forces perform both recon operations and destruction of key enemy installations; it's perfectly plausible the ''Lucifer'' fleet was tasked to identify a target, and then perform various combat actions (depending on the scale of threat posed by said target) intended to weaken or even defeat the enemy whilst a larger force was en route (for example, the FS2 Shivan fleet; perhaps delayed by distance or caught behind an unexpected Knossos).
	*Assumes that the GTVA has never researched Shivan engines, simply by dint of engine glow colors in one mission.		*Assumes that the GTVA has never researched Shivan engines, simply by dint of engine glow colors in one mission.
	*Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and Terran-Vasudan technology; however, the ''Hades'' had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the ''Lucifer'' (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the ''Silent Threat'' debriefings). It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.		*Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and Terran-Vasudan technology; however, the ''Hades'' had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the ''Lucifer'' (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the ''Silent Threat'' debriefings). It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.

Snail: YOU HAVE ANGERED SNAIL. THE PLURAL OF SATHANAS IS NOT SATHANI.

2009-02-17T13:11:26Z

YOU HAVE ANGERED SNAIL. THE PLURAL OF SATHANAS IS NOT SATHANI.

SypheDMar at 18:05, 15 February 2009

2009-02-15T18:05:47Z

Show changes

TopAce: recategorization from "Fan activities"

2008-10-05T09:38:33Z

recategorization from "Fan activities"

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:38, 5 October 2008
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	*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.		*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.

	[[Category:~~Fan activities~~]]		[[Category:Shivan Theories\|Shivan Manifesto, criticisms of the]]

Mobius: The correct plural form of Sathanas is Sathanes.

2008-09-24T18:16:27Z

The correct plural form of Sathanas is Sathanes.

TopAce at 17:50, 24 September 2008

2008-09-24T17:50:59Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:50, 24 September 2008
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	*Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and Terran-Vasudan technology; however, the ''Hades'' had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the ''Lucifer'' (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the ''Silent Threat'' debriefings). It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.		*Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and Terran-Vasudan technology; however, the ''Hades'' had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the ''Lucifer'' (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the ''Silent Threat'' debriefings). It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.
	*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.		*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.

			[[Category:Fan activities]]

Selectah: removed vandalism

2008-02-21T10:38:48Z

removed vandalism

← Older revision	Revision as of 10:38, 21 February 2008
(No difference)

TopAce at 17:59, 25 November 2006

2006-11-25T17:59:52Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:11, 17 February 2009
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	*Assumes the Shivans failed in FS1 (we don't know if their priority is xenocide, if the FS2 fleet was a continuation of that attack, or if [[FreeSpace 3]] would see the Shivans resume their attack. Also, we don't know if Bosch changed the Shivans' plans in FS2 from being of destroying the GTVA to something else; also, the Shivans effectively neutralized both homeworlds of their enemies, therefore it must be a success).		*Assumes the Shivans failed in FS1 (we don't know if their priority is xenocide, if the FS2 fleet was a continuation of that attack, or if [[FreeSpace 3]] would see the Shivans resume their attack. Also, we don't know if Bosch changed the Shivans' plans in FS2 from being of destroying the GTVA to something else; also, the Shivans effectively neutralized both homeworlds of their enemies, therefore it must be a success).
	*Assumes that the Shivans attack races for using subspace, rather than for fighting with each other (a key point of the previously referenced FS1 monologues was that the Ancients were being punished for their subjugation of other races).		*Assumes that the Shivans attack races for using subspace, rather than for fighting with each other (a key point of the previously referenced FS1 monologues was that the Ancients were being punished for their subjugation of other races).
	*Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from [[Capella]] to [[Vega]] and [[Epsilon Pegasi]]; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non-juggernaut) forces. It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the [[SJ Sathanas\|~~Sathani~~]] and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.		*Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from [[Capella]] to [[Vega]] and [[Epsilon Pegasi]]; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non-juggernaut) forces. It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the [[SJ Sathanas\|Sathanas juggernauts]] and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.
	*Assumes the ~~Sathani~~ cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through one or more unstable nodes.		*Assumes the Sathanas juggernauts cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through one or more unstable nodes.
	*Massively assumption over the purpose of [[Shivan Comm Node]]s. Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself. Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the [[Lion's Den]] mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed). This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 ~~Sathani~~ might just have been needed for the Capella star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).		*Massively assumption over the purpose of [[Shivan Comm Node]]s. Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself. Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the [[Lion's Den]] mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed). This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 Sathanas juggernauts might just have been needed for the Capella star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).
	*Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a ''Sathanas''-type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVA's tactics for attacking such a vessel. It's worth noting that the 2nd time the ''Colossus'' encountered a ''Sathanas'', its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attacks.		*Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a ''Sathanas''-type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVA's tactics for attacking such a vessel. It's worth noting that the 2nd time the ''Colossus'' encountered a ''Sathanas'', its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attacks.
	*Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force. This is likely to be wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the [[Great War]], and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development. Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to [[NTF Rebellion\|rebellion]]. Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans acquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, ''et al.''. It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.		*Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force. This is likely to be wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the [[Great War]], and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development. Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to [[NTF Rebellion\|rebellion]]. Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans acquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, ''et al.''. It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.
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	*Assumes the Shivans need comm nodes as life support systems, yet fails to mention why they have not been seen before in FS1 or FS2 (particularly the former). The device is probably just a massive sensor array, not some outlandish life support system.		*Assumes the Shivans need comm nodes as life support systems, yet fails to mention why they have not been seen before in FS1 or FS2 (particularly the former). The device is probably just a massive sensor array, not some outlandish life support system.
	*Assumes that the Capella supernova does not damage subspace but all other novas would, as an explanation of why Capella was 'chosen'.		*Assumes that the Capella supernova does not damage subspace but all other novas would, as an explanation of why Capella was 'chosen'.
	*Unfounded assumption of living or grown Shivan vessels; this is not supported by any of the tech statements in FS1 or FS2 (particularly relating to retrofitted Shivan fighters). Additionally, the dexterity of the ~~Sathani~~'s arms in the FS2 end cutscene is scarcely unusual or inexplicable for a purely constructed vessel - consider an F-14's swing wings and add a few centuries (or millennia) of mechanical engineering. A minor issue is the use of metallic 'grating' type textures in the Hallfight cutscene from FS1 - whilst this would not rule out 'grown' technology, it is not visually indicative of it in the way you would expect it (a visual indicator of Shivan technology) to be.		*Unfounded assumption of living or grown Shivan vessels; this is not supported by any of the tech statements in FS1 or FS2 (particularly relating to retrofitted Shivan fighters). Additionally, the dexterity of the Sathanas juggernauts' arms in the FS2 end cutscene is scarcely unusual or inexplicable for a purely constructed vessel - consider an F-14's swing wings and add a few centuries (or millennia) of mechanical engineering. A minor issue is the use of metallic 'grating' type textures in the Hallfight cutscene from FS1 - whilst this would not rule out 'grown' technology, it is not visually indicative of it in the way you would expect it (a visual indicator of Shivan technology) to be.
	*Describes the Shivans as a purely energy-based lifeform inhabiting physical bodies temporarily simply to move in space, than describes them as retreating to a physical station, in subspace, with their ships. Why would the Shivans not move about in their natural energy form? Also, the concept of a subspace 'hub' is unsupported by any evidence from FreeSpace.		*Describes the Shivans as a purely energy-based lifeform inhabiting physical bodies temporarily simply to move in space, than describes them as retreating to a physical station, in subspace, with their ships. Why would the Shivans not move about in their natural energy form? Also, the concept of a subspace 'hub' is unsupported by any evidence from FreeSpace.
	*Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.		*Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.
	*States it is established that Shivan traffic is proportional to species subspace traffic - this is in no way established. Especially as there is no exemplar for any level of subspace traffic from the Shivans, let alone what the variances in the levels of Ancients, Terran and Vasudan traffic have been over the past 8000 years; this is purely stated (as unsupported fact) in order to justify a similarly assumption of how Shivans can perceive locations in space.		*States it is established that Shivan traffic is proportional to species subspace traffic - this is in no way established. Especially as there is no exemplar for any level of subspace traffic from the Shivans, let alone what the variances in the levels of Ancients, Terran and Vasudan traffic have been over the past 8000 years; this is purely stated (as unsupported fact) in order to justify a similarly assumption of how Shivans can perceive locations in space.
	*Assumes Shivans cannot transmit messages in long distance; namely that the ''Lucifer'' was unable to communicate with 'home'. This is wholly unsubstantiated and based on a number of assumptions - that the ''Lucifer'' had time to ask for assistance, that the ''Sathanas'' fleet was retreating in FS2, that no reinforcements were sent after the ''Lucifer'' was destroyed, etc. This also misses the possibility to suggest a use for Shivan Comm Nodes - i.e. that type of ultra-long distance or inter-spatial communications.		*Assumes Shivans cannot transmit messages in long distance; namely that the ''Lucifer'' was unable to communicate with 'home'. This is wholly unsubstantiated and based on a number of assumptions - that the ''Lucifer'' had time to ask for assistance, that the ''Sathanas'' fleet was retreating in FS2, that no reinforcements were sent after the ''Lucifer'' was destroyed, etc. This also misses the possibility to suggest a use for Shivan Comm Nodes - i.e. that type of ultra-long distance or inter-spatial communications.
	*Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the [[NTC Trinity\|''Trinity'']] into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior. This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the ~~Sathani~~ fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.		*Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the [[NTC Trinity\|''Trinity'']] into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior. This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the Sathanas fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.
	*Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace. Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than ''xx'' billion years after.		*Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace. Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than ''xx'' billion years after.
	*Describes planets, stars, etc. as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?		*Describes planets, stars, etc. as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:16, 24 September 2008
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	*Assumes the Shivans failed in FS1 (we don't know if their priority is xenocide, if the FS2 fleet was a continuation of that attack, or if [[FreeSpace 3]] would see the Shivans resume their attack. Moreso, we don't know if Bosch changed the Shivans' plans in FS2 from being of destroying the GTVA to something else; also, the Shivans effectively neutralised both homeworlds of their enemies, therefore it must be a success).		*Assumes the Shivans failed in FS1 (we don't know if their priority is xenocide, if the FS2 fleet was a continuation of that attack, or if [[FreeSpace 3]] would see the Shivans resume their attack. Moreso, we don't know if Bosch changed the Shivans' plans in FS2 from being of destroying the GTVA to something else; also, the Shivans effectively neutralised both homeworlds of their enemies, therefore it must be a success).
	*Assumes that the Shivans attack races for using subspace, rather than for fighting with each other (a key point of the previously referenced FS1 monologues was that the Ancients were being punished for their subjugation of other races).		*Assumes that the Shivans attack races for using subspace, rather than for fighting with each other (a key point of the previously referenced FS1 monologues was that the Ancients were being punished for their subjugation of other races).
	*Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from [[Capella]] to [[Vega]] and [[Epsilon Pegasi]]; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non-juggernaut) forces. It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the [[SJ Sathanas\|~~Sathani~~]] and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.		*Assumes the Shivans did not try and stop the GTVA destroying the nodes from [[Capella]] to [[Vega]] and [[Epsilon Pegasi]]; the mission briefings and dialogues describe heavy attacks on both these nodes from 'conventional' (non-juggernaut) forces. It's not inconceivable that these attacks were intended to both create a defensive screen for the [[SJ Sathanas\|Sathanes]] and also to allow a system hopping plan of extermination, destroying every star in every GTVA system in a calculated and complete genocide.
	*Assumes the Sathani cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through one or more unstable nodes.		*Assumes the Sathani cannot make an inter-system jump from Capella - although we know the Shivans could use unstable nodes that were not marked as stable to the GTVA, and that intra-system jumps are near instant, making it possible (if unlikely) the entire fleet could not escape through one or more unstable nodes.
	*Massively assumptative over the purpose of [[Shivan Comm Node]]s. Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself. Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the [[Lion's Den]] mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed). This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 ~~Sathani~~ might just have been needed for the Capellan star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).		*Massively assumptative over the purpose of [[Shivan Comm Node]]s. Especially given that 'Comm Node' is a fairly descriptive term in itself. Also assumes some linkage between the Shivan Sathanas traffic and the destruction of these devices - this is somewhat nonsensical, particularly given that the [[Lion's Den]] mission made no assumption these devices would be destroyed (i.e. this buildup would occur in-game regardless of whether any Comm Nodes were destroyed). This would also not be an explanation of the increased juggernaut fleet, given the Shivans already had massive superiority within all access points to that region of space; especially not if we consider that 80 Sathanes might just have been needed for the Capellan star (especially given that is where they were deployed, rather than in defensive positions around comm node locations).
	*Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a ''Sathanas''-type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVA's tactics for attacking such a vessel. It's worth noting that the 2nd time the ''Colossus'' encountered a ''Sathanas'', its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attacks.		*Assumes that the Shivans could never have lost a ''Sathanas''-type vessel before; it's arguable that they (given the 80+ in reserve) could have seen that loss as acceptable - in deploying it they destroyed a number of significant GTVA blockade forces, and also exposed the GTVA's tactics for attacking such a vessel. It's worth noting that the 2nd time the ''Colossus'' encountered a ''Sathanas'', its fighterbays had been destroyed; indicating the Shivans knew the key to a victory was to stop GTVA bomber attacks.
	*Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force. This is likely to be wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the [[Great War]], and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development. Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to [[NTF Rebellion\|rebellion]]. Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans aquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, ''et al''. It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.		*Assumes that the Shivans believed the GTVA had multiple (many) Colossi, and that Shivans did not have a comparably large force. This is likely to be wrong for several reasons. Firstly, the Shivans would likely have had intelligence upon the GTVA capabilities from the [[Great War]], and thus would know the GTVA did not have the technology or resource levels for such rapid advancement and development. Also, the Shivans would have had the considerable intelligence source of Bosch, an admiral prior to [[NTF Rebellion\|rebellion]]. Also, this is tied with an assumption that the Shivans are technologically stagnant - there is more evidence to contradict than support this, given the Shivans aquisition of beams (for all capships), flak, ''et al''. It also assumes the Shivans would not anticipate GTVA technological advancement, despite having seen the GTVA taking massive strides (sensor, shield, weapons, subspace technology all spring to mind) during the relatively short Great War.
	*Assumes the Shivans would retreat from a large GTVA force rather than engage; especially given the previous attribution of the Shivans to be xenocidal and determined to 'defend' subspace. This would imply the Shivans are in fact just bullies, who run from any larger force rather than 'defend subspace'; assumes that leaving the GTVA to rebuild would be preferable for a race whose fight is for survival.		*Assumes the Shivans would retreat from a large GTVA force rather than engage; especially given the previous attribution of the Shivans to be xenocidal and determined to 'defend' subspace. This would imply the Shivans are in fact just bullies, who run from any larger force rather than 'defend subspace'; assumes that leaving the GTVA to rebuild would be preferable for a race whose fight is for survival.
	*Also assumes the Shivans would be somewhat stupid, in that it should be blatantly obvious the GTVA would not withold such a large and war-winning force, especially when taking heavy losses in Capella. Any simple tactician would know it is nonsensical to sacrifice lives and territory if you have a war-winning advantage. This reasoning requires a high level of naivety from the Shivans.		*Also assumes the Shivans would be somewhat stupid, in that it should be blatantly obvious the GTVA would not withold such a large and war-winning force, especially when taking heavy losses in Capella. Any simple tactician would know it is nonsensical to sacrifice lives and territory if you have a war-winning advantage. This reasoning requires a high level of naivety from the Shivans.
	*Assumes that the Shivans destroyed Capella to create an extremely large (physical dimensions) jump node, rather than the (Petrarch suggested) long distance node. This does not explain why the Shivans would sacrifice so many ships; effectively their entire non-~~Sathani~~ fleet, as well as a number of the juggernauts. It's one thing to retreat - it's another to do so in a manner that loses a massive force, especially when you have a clear escape route ([[Gamma Draconis]])		*Assumes that the Shivans destroyed Capella to create an extremely large (physical dimensions) jump node, rather than the (Petrarch suggested) long distance node. This does not explain why the Shivans would sacrifice so many ships; effectively their entire non-Sathanes fleet, as well as a number of the juggernauts. It's one thing to retreat - it's another to do so in a manner that loses a massive force, especially when you have a clear escape route ([[Gamma Draconis]])
	*Largely relies upon the assumption of a Shivan hive mind and fight or flight response to justify retreat, where the 'flight' instinct is caused by irrational and unsupported fear. There is no evidence to suggest the Shivans think in this manner.		*Largely relies upon the assumption of a Shivan hive mind and fight or flight response to justify retreat, where the 'flight' instinct is caused by irrational and unsupported fear. There is no evidence to suggest the Shivans think in this manner.
	*Evidence of Shivan retreat is flawed; in all cited cases, the 'retreat' can be justified as simple tactics rather than the characterised 'fight or flight' response; a cruiser requiring resupply, a cruiser group attempting to combine forces with another, a destroyer protecting the weak rear of the first ''Sathanas''. None of these are also equatable to a full-scale retreat, being individual movements within a large scale offensive.		*Evidence of Shivan retreat is flawed; in all cited cases, the 'retreat' can be justified as simple tactics rather than the characterised 'fight or flight' response; a cruiser requiring resupply, a cruiser group attempting to combine forces with another, a destroyer protecting the weak rear of the first ''Sathanas''. None of these are also equatable to a full-scale retreat, being individual movements within a large scale offensive.
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	*Assumes the Shivans need comm nodes as life support systems, yet fails to mention why they have not been seen before in FS1 or FS2 (particularly the former). The device is probably just a massive sensor array, not some outlandish life support system.		*Assumes the Shivans need comm nodes as life support systems, yet fails to mention why they have not been seen before in FS1 or FS2 (particularly the former). The device is probably just a massive sensor array, not some outlandish life support system.
	*Assumes that the Capellan supernova does not damage subspace but all other novas would, as an explanation of why Capella was 'chosen'.		*Assumes that the Capellan supernova does not damage subspace but all other novas would, as an explanation of why Capella was 'chosen'.
	*Unfounded assumption of living or grown Shivan vessels; this is not supported by any of the tech statements in FS1 or FS2 (particularly relating to retrofitted Shivan fighters). Additionally, the dexterity of the ~~Sathani~~ arms in the FS2 end cutscene is scarcely unusual or inexplicable for a purely constructed vessel - consider an F-~~14s~~ swing wings and add a few centuries (or millenia) of mechanical engineering. A minor issue is the use of metallic 'grating' type textures in the Hallfight cutscene from FS1 - whilst this would not rule out 'grown' technology, it is not visually indicative of it in the way you would expect it (a visual indicator of Shivan technology) to be.		*Unfounded assumption of living or grown Shivan vessels; this is not supported by any of the tech statements in FS1 or FS2 (particularly relating to retrofitted Shivan fighters). Additionally, the dexterity of the Sathanes arms in the FS2 end cutscene is scarcely unusual or inexplicable for a purely constructed vessel - consider an F-14's swing wings and add a few centuries (or millenia) of mechanical engineering. A minor issue is the use of metallic 'grating' type textures in the Hallfight cutscene from FS1 - whilst this would not rule out 'grown' technology, it is not visually indicative of it in the way you would expect it (a visual indicator of Shivan technology) to be.
	*Describes the Shivans as a purely energy-based lifeform inhabiting physical bodies temporarily simply to move in realspace, than describes them as retreating to a physical station, in subspace, with their ships. Why would the Shivans not move about in their natural energy form? Also, the concept of a subspace 'hub' is unsupported by any evidence from Freespace.		*Describes the Shivans as a purely energy-based lifeform inhabiting physical bodies temporarily simply to move in realspace, than describes them as retreating to a physical station, in subspace, with their ships. Why would the Shivans not move about in their natural energy form? Also, the concept of a subspace 'hub' is unsupported by any evidence from Freespace.
	*Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.		*Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.
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	*Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the [[NTC Trinity\|''Trinity'']] into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior. This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the Sathani fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.		*Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the [[NTC Trinity\|''Trinity'']] into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior. This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the Sathani fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.
	*Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace. Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than ''xx'' billion years after.		*Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace. Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than ''xx'' billion years after.
	*Describes planets, stars, etc as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?		*Describes planets, stars, etc. as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?
	*Describes the Shivans as manipulating matter - but fails to explain how this can mesh with the previous description of their perception as being only upon the level of subspace rather than physical object. Also fails to explain why the Shivans would evolve in the subspace dimension and yet develop an ability to perceive matter - essentially, this portion of the Manifesto assumes essentially human characteristics of investigation and understanding, but places them within the context of a wholly alien environment (one where normal relativistic physics do not even exist) and upon an alien immeasurably different from any real-space type life.		*Describes the Shivans as manipulating matter - but fails to explain how this can mesh with the previous description of their perception as being only upon the level of subspace rather than physical object. Also fails to explain why the Shivans would evolve in the subspace dimension and yet develop an ability to perceive matter - essentially, this portion of the Manifesto assumes essentially human characteristics of investigation and understanding, but places them within the context of a wholly alien environment (one where normal relativistic physics do not even exist) and upon an alien immeasurably different from any real-space type life.
	*Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan. This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond its creator. Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)		*Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan. This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond its creator. Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:59, 25 November 2006
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	*Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.		*Describes the Shivans as being affected (in jump position) by subspace forces - but the Shivans should surely be able to counteract this, given their stated ability with subspace, their long term usage of it, and that they are stated as being effectively 'part' of it.
	*States it is established that Shivan traffic is proportional to species subspace traffic - this is in no way established. Especially as there is no exemplar for any level of subspace traffic from the Shivans, let alone what the variances in the levels of Ancients, Terran and Vasudan traffic have been over the past 8000 years; this is purely stated (as unsupported fact) in order to justify a similarly unevidenced assumption of how Shivans can perceive locations in space.		*States it is established that Shivan traffic is proportional to species subspace traffic - this is in no way established. Especially as there is no exemplar for any level of subspace traffic from the Shivans, let alone what the variances in the levels of Ancients, Terran and Vasudan traffic have been over the past 8000 years; this is purely stated (as unsupported fact) in order to justify a similarly unevidenced assumption of how Shivans can perceive locations in space.
	*Assumes Shivans cannot transmit messages in long distance; namely that the Lucifer was unable to communicate with 'home'. This is wholly unsubstantiated and based on a number of assumptions - that the Lucifer had time to ask for assistance, that the Sathanas fleet was retreating in FS2, that no reinforcements were sent after the Lucifer was destroyed, etc. This also misses the possibility to suggest a use for Shivan Comm Nodes - i.e. that type of ultra-long distance or inter-spatial communications.		*Assumes Shivans cannot transmit messages in long distance; namely that the ''Lucifer'' was unable to communicate with 'home'. This is wholly unsubstantiated and based on a number of assumptions - that the ''Lucifer'' had time to ask for assistance, that the ''Sathanas'' fleet was retreating in FS2, that no reinforcements were sent after the ''Lucifer'' was destroyed, etc. This also misses the possibility to suggest a use for Shivan Comm Nodes - i.e. that type of ultra-long distance or inter-spatial communications.
	*Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the Trinity into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior. This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the Sathani fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.		*Assumes the Shivans had only one point of entry into GTVA space in FS2; misses out the fact that the first 'move' made is by the entry of the [[NTC Trinity\|''Trinity'']] into the nebula, and that there is no evidence of a Shivan attack from that point prior. This is supported by the simple time it took to assemble the Sathani fleet in the nebula - and also that the GTVA were allowed to launch probing sorties.
	*Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace. Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than xx billion years after.		*Assigns a strange arbitrary value for the age of subspace. Subspace is described as an alternate plain of existence; as such, it would have came into existence at the point of the big bang (i.e. with all existence) rather than ''xx'' billion years after.
	*Describes planets, stars, etc as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?		*Describes planets, stars, etc as not existing in subspace - but these objects all generate gravity fields, and we know that gravity affects subspace, hence surely there are perceptible?
	*Describes the Shivans as manipulating matter - but fails to explain how this can mesh with the previous description of their perception as being only upon the level of subspace rather than physical object. Also fails to explain why the Shivans would evolve in the subspace dimension and yet develop an ability to perceive matter - essentially, this portion of the ~~manifesto~~ assumes essentially human characteristics of investigation and understanding, but places them within the context of a wholly alien environment (one where normal relativistic physics do not even exist) and upon an alien immeasurably different from any real-space type life.		*Describes the Shivans as manipulating matter - but fails to explain how this can mesh with the previous description of their perception as being only upon the level of subspace rather than physical object. Also fails to explain why the Shivans would evolve in the subspace dimension and yet develop an ability to perceive matter - essentially, this portion of the Manifesto assumes essentially human characteristics of investigation and understanding, but places them within the context of a wholly alien environment (one where normal relativistic physics do not even exist) and upon an alien immeasurably different from any real-space type life.
	*Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan. This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond ~~it's~~ creator. Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)		*Assumes all subspace travel is harmful, except Shivan. This is despite failing to define exactly what is special about Shivan subspace travel, beyond its creator. Nor does it explain why the Shivans would not offer 'safe' travel to other races; especially given an implication they have the best subspace engines (technically, n-dimension oscillation devices to facilitate entry to subspace apertures)
	*Another issue of living ships is that there is no explanation why these ships would be alive - could the non-corporeal Shivans harness an evolved living (space faring) animal? If not, how else could they acquire such a technology - given that they are as far physically and scientifically removed ('born' from non-relativistic space) from normalspace life as possible (i.e. not genetic engineering - I would doubt an energy race has genes in any way equivalent to normalspace biological animals).		*Another issue of living ships is that there is no explanation why these ships would be alive - could the non-corporeal Shivans harness an evolved living (space faring) animal? If not, how else could they acquire such a technology - given that they are as far physically and scientifically removed ('born' from non-relativistic space) from normalspace life as possible (i.e. not genetic engineering - I would doubt an energy race has genes in any way equivalent to normalspace biological animals).
	*Opts to dismiss the FS2 box text on very spurious grounds; namely by assuming a Shivan scout force (the Lucifer fleet) would be small, yet not considering what 'small' constitutes for a race as powerful as the Shivans. This also omits the concept of a scout force that is also permitted to attack an enemy when it has superior forces. For example, Force Recon forces perform both recon operations and destruction of key enemy installations; it's perfectly plausible the Lucifer fleet was tasked to identify a target, and then perform various combat actions (depending on the scale of threat posed by said target) intended to weaken or even defeat the enemy whilst a larger force was enroute (for example, the FS2 Shivan fleet; perhaps delayed by distance or caught behind an unexpected Knossos).		*Opts to dismiss the FS2 box text on very spurious grounds; namely by assuming a Shivan scout force (the ''Lucifer'' fleet) would be small, yet not considering what 'small' constitutes for a race as powerful as the Shivans. This also omits the concept of a scout force that is also permitted to attack an enemy when it has superior forces. For example, Force Recon forces perform both recon operations and destruction of key enemy installations; it's perfectly plausible the ''Lucifer'' fleet was tasked to identify a target, and then perform various combat actions (depending on the scale of threat posed by said target) intended to weaken or even defeat the enemy whilst a larger force was enroute (for example, the FS2 Shivan fleet; perhaps delayed by distance or caught behind an unexpected Knossos).
	*Assumes that the GTVA has never researched Shivan engines, simply by dint of engine glow colours in one mission.		*Assumes that the GTVA has never researched Shivan engines, simply by dint of engine glow colours in one mission.
	*Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and TV technology; however, the Hades had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the Lucifer (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the Silent Threat debriefings). It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.		*Assumes the GTVA has not had success integrating Shivan and Terran-Vasudan technology; however, the ''Hades'' had (if fully operational) Shivan weaponry equivalent to the ''Lucifer'' (the exact text describes a defense system; this is in the ''Silent Threat'' debriefings). It's also possible technological issues are simply down to lack of suitable raw materials.
	*Incorrect summation of ~~Bosches~~ motives for the NTF ~~rebellion~~; in actuality (as described in the game) ~~Bosches~~ fighting the GTI in the Hades rebellion led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF ~~rebellion~~ was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder ~~Ancients~~ ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and ~~it's~~ activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the ~~Manifestos~~ general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.		*Incorrect summation of Bosch's motives for the NTF Rebellion; in actuality (as described in the game) Bosch's fighting the GTI in the [[Hades Rebellion\|''Hades'' rebellion]] led him to some (unknown) revelation regarding the fate of humanity and the motives of the Shivans - the NTF Rebellion was started in order to provide a diversion, allowing Bosch to plunder Ancient ruins in Vasudan systems (presumably to discover the location of the Knossos and its activation methods). This may be an accidental omission, but it's fitting with the Manifesto's general ignoring of the role and importance of Bosch within the FS2 storyline.