https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Talk%3ABattle_of_Endor_Syndrome 2026-11-15T22:39:17Z Revision history for this page on the wiki MediaWiki 1.43.9 https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=28448&oldid=prev 2010-03-16T17:59:21Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:59, 16 March 2010</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l80">Line 80:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 80:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and received an informal job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.  My multiplayer mission Shivan Incursion had some execution issues, but the design was compelling. - Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and received an informal job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.  My multiplayer mission Shivan Incursion had some execution issues, but the design was compelling. - Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If you think about it, if you don't want to take the time and effort of programing each and every ship in a BoE style mission, just make a background image of the ships.  Won't look as nice, but it'll work, all the same.  On top of that, if you do happen to program all the ships on the battlefield, you'll have to contend with frame rate problems and quality issues.  Again, making a background of the additional ships should fix that. - [[User:NFSRacer|NFSRacer]] callsign "Cypher"</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

NFSRacer https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16718&oldid=prev 2008-07-02T06:24:41Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:24, 2 July 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l66">Line 66:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 66:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's put to rest this argument that I was inexperienced<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, </del>arguing from inexperience <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">or the comments were limited to FreeSpace 1</del>.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design.  <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Simpler </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">often better</del>.  <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Some of </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the INTENTIONAL design limitations placed </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the engine by Volition to restrain their own designers</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's put to rest this argument that I was inexperienced <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">or </ins>arguing from inexperience.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design.  <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The aritcle explains a commonly held viewpoint, and the explanation </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">somewhat limited by the concerns at the time</ins>.  <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">But I strongly disagree that </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">warning applies only to FreeSpace 1 and most especially this statement:  "Any possible value it has left </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">this day and age is historical and not practical</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"Any possible value it has left in </del>this <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">day and age is historical and not practical."</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Let's put </ins>this <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">into </ins>context <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- </ins>the BoE article helped lead to the first community-based reviews dedicated to helping experienced and inexperienced FREDers improve their missions.  It was the rallying cry for the community to organize itself and build some way to support n00b design, rather than allow the flood of poor design to overwhelm players with bad impressions of Volition's game.  The lessons were also cautions against the hubris that could trap experienced FRED designers -- and it was well received by even experienced designers at the time.  That caution seems to have been lost over the years<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">That you're not aware of the historical </del>context <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">of the article strongly suggests the changes should be restored, not that </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">article be deleted!  The support I received from this </del>BoE article helped lead to the first community-based reviews dedicated to helping experienced and inexperienced FREDers improve their missions.  It was the rallying cry for the community to organize itself and build some way to support n00b design, rather than allow the flood of poor design to overwhelm players with bad impressions of Volition's game.  The lessons were also cautions against the hubris that could trap experienced FRED designers -- and it was well received by even experienced designers at the time.  That caution seems to have been lost over the years.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Practically speaking, the article argues that simpler is often better.  Some of the changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the INTENTIONAL design limitations placed in the engine by Volition to restrain their own designers.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Frankly, the use of Derelict as a counter example amuses me.  The design leads on Derelict were people who I worked with at Volition Watch and we had reviewed hundreds of missions by n00bs and experienced designers alike.  They were well aware of my viewpoint on the need to carefully design missions to give the impression of a larger space battle without actually throwing all the elements at the player</ins>.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;He argues failures that will exist in any mission with poor design as failures of a specific type of mission that happens to be the least forgiving of design failures.&quot;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;He argues failures that will exist in any mission with poor design as failures of a specific type of mission that happens to be the least forgiving of design failures.&quot;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Yes, that a mission is fun to play doesn't excuse that it probably has poor design<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.  The VolitionWatch team reviewed hundreds of missions by n00bs and experienced designers alike.  Derelict was designed by people I worked with at VolitionWatch, and were well aware of my viewpoint on the need to carefully design missions to give the impression of a larger space battle without actually throwing all the elements at the player</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Yes, that a mission is fun to play doesn't excuse that it probably has poor design.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Design was </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">watchword then</del>, and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">it should still </del>be <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">now</del>.  <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">That committment </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">design is why two missions I designed were placed </del>in the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Game </del>of the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Year edition, and received an informal job offer </del>at the time to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Even if its execution works, Battle of Endor missions have inescapable design limitations.  Foremost among them is </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">loss of the story</ins>, and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">its deletion from the wiki misses the mark.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must </ins>be <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign</ins>.  <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If they're too busy </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">observe that set piece </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a critical event, you've lost the ability to focus </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing.  The key part </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"show" is directing </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">player's attention to the right place </ins>at the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">right </ins>time<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, which is impossible </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">do when you've overwhelmed them with blips.  You call it asthetics, but I call it design.  What you call design, I call execution</ins>.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Most daming to my critics IMO is that </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">wiki reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must </del>be <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign</del>.  <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If they're too busy </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">observe that set piece </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a critical event, you've lost </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ability to focus the players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing.  The key part </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"show" is directing </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">player's attention in </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">right place, which is impossible </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">do when you've overwhelmed them with blips</del>.  <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You call it asthetics</del>, but <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I call it </del>design. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>- Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Design was </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">watchword then, and it should still </ins>be <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">now</ins>.  <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">That committment </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">design is why two missions I designed were placed </ins>in the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Game </ins>of the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Year edition, and received an informal job offer at </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">time </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2</ins>.  <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">My multiplayer mission Shivan Incursion had some execution issues</ins>, but <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the </ins>design <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">was compelling</ins>. - Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td></tr> </table>

Zarathud https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16717&oldid=prev 2008-07-02T06:04:49Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:04, 2 July 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l66">Line 66:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 66:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's put to rest this argument that I<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'m </del>inexperienced, arguing from inexperience or the comments were limited to FreeSpace 1.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design.  Some of the changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the INTENTIONAL design limitations placed in the engine by Volition to restrain their own designers.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's put to rest this argument that I <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">was </ins>inexperienced, arguing from inexperience or the comments were limited to FreeSpace 1.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.  Simpler is often better</ins>.  Some of the changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the INTENTIONAL design limitations placed in the engine by Volition to restrain their own designers.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;Any possible value it has left in this day and age is historical and not practical.&quot;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;Any possible value it has left in this day and age is historical and not practical.&quot;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>That you're not aware of the historical context of the article suggests the changes should be restored, not that the article be deleted<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. </del> The support I received from this BoE article helped lead to the first community-based reviews dedicated to helping experienced and inexperienced FREDers improve their missions.  It was the rallying cry for the community to organize itself and build some way to support n00b design, rather than allow the flood of poor design to overwhelm players with bad impressions of Volition's game.  The lessons were also cautions against the hubris that could trap experienced FRED designers.  That caution seems to have been lost over the years.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>That you're not aware of the historical context of the article <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">strongly </ins>suggests the changes should be restored, not that the article be deleted<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">! </ins> The support I received from this BoE article helped lead to the first community-based reviews dedicated to helping experienced and inexperienced FREDers improve their missions.  It was the rallying cry for the community to organize itself and build some way to support n00b design, rather than allow the flood of poor design to overwhelm players with bad impressions of Volition's game.  The lessons were also cautions against the hubris that could trap experienced FRED designers <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- and it was well received by even experienced designers at the time</ins>.  That caution seems to have been lost over the years.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;He argues failures that will exist in any mission with poor design as failures of a specific type of mission that happens to be the least forgiving of design failures.&quot;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;He argues failures that will exist in any mission with poor design as failures of a specific type of mission that happens to be the least forgiving of design failures.&quot;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Yes, that a mission is fun to play doesn&#039;t excuse that it probably has poor design.  The VolitionWatch team reviewed hundreds of missions by n00bs and experienced designers alike.  Derelict was designed by people I worked with at VolitionWatch, and were well aware of my viewpoint on the need to carefully design missions to give the impression of a larger space battle without actually throwing all the elements at the player.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Yes, that a mission is fun to play doesn&#039;t excuse that it probably has poor design.  The VolitionWatch team reviewed hundreds of missions by n00bs and experienced designers alike.  Derelict was designed by people I worked with at VolitionWatch, and were well aware of my viewpoint on the need to carefully design missions to give the impression of a larger space battle without actually throwing all the elements at the player.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a </del>job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">received an informal </ins>job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most daming IMO is that the reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they're too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you've lost the ability to focus the players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing.  The key part of "show" is directing the player's attention in the right place, which is impossible to do when you've overwhelmed them. - Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most daming <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">to my critics </ins>IMO is that the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">wiki </ins>reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they're too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you've lost the ability to focus the players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing.  The key part of "show" is directing the player's attention in the right place, which is impossible to do when you've overwhelmed them <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">with blips</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> You call it asthetics, but I call it design.  </ins>- Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td></tr> </table>

Zarathud https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16716&oldid=prev 2008-07-02T05:57:18Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 05:57, 2 July 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l66">Line 66:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 66:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's put to rest this argument that I'm inexperienced, arguing from inexperience or the comments were limited to FreeSpace 1.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design.  Some of the changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[u]intentional[/u] </del>design limitations placed in the engine to restrain their own designers.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Let's put to rest this argument that I'm inexperienced, arguing from inexperience or the comments were limited to FreeSpace 1.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design.  Some of the changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">INTENTIONAL </ins>design limitations placed in the engine <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">by Volition </ins>to restrain their own designers.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;Any possible value it has left in this day and age is historical and not practical.&quot;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&quot;Any possible value it has left in this day and age is historical and not practical.&quot;</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l76">Line 76:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 76:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and a job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and a job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most daming IMO is that the reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they're too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you've lost the ability to focus the players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most daming IMO is that the reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they're too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you've lost the ability to focus the players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> The key part of </ins>"<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">show</ins>" is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">directing </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">player's attention in the right place, which is impossible to do when you've overwhelmed them</ins>. - Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Changing the title to </del>"<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">why should I make missions</del>" is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">just </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">equivalent of trolling</del>. - Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr> </table>

Zarathud https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16715&oldid=prev 2008-07-02T05:54:09Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 05:54, 2 July 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l78">Line 78:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 78:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most daming IMO is that the reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I&#039;m not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the &quot;hero,&quot; but that Alpha 1&#039;s presence means they&#039;re experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they&#039;re too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you&#039;ve lost the ability to focus the players on what events they&#039;re supposed to be experiencing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Most daming IMO is that the reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I&#039;m not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the &quot;hero,&quot; but that Alpha 1&#039;s presence means they&#039;re experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they&#039;re too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you&#039;ve lost the ability to focus the players on what events they&#039;re supposed to be experiencing.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Changing the title to "why should I make missions" is just the equivalent of trolling.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Changing the title to "why should I make missions" is just the equivalent of trolling. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">- Zarathud 7/2/08 1 AM (CST)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Zarathud https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16714&oldid=prev 2008-07-02T05:53:36Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 05:53, 2 July 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l65">Line 65:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 65:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: &quot;It seems that everyone&#039;s first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty&quot;. That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Let's put to rest this argument that I'm inexperienced, arguing from inexperience or the comments were limited to FreeSpace 1.  The comments were made based on observations by the FRED community at large in the run-up to FreeSpace 2, and informal input from Volition designers (including Jason) about mission design.  Some of the changes from FS_Open involved undoing some of the [u]intentional[/u] design limitations placed in the engine to restrain their own designers.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"Any possible value it has left in this day and age is historical and not practical."</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">That you're not aware of the historical context of the article suggests the changes should be restored, not that the article be deleted.  The support I received from this BoE article helped lead to the first community-based reviews dedicated to helping experienced and inexperienced FREDers improve their missions.  It was the rallying cry for the community to organize itself and build some way to support n00b design, rather than allow the flood of poor design to overwhelm players with bad impressions of Volition's game.  The lessons were also cautions against the hubris that could trap experienced FRED designers.  That caution seems to have been lost over the years.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"He argues failures that will exist in any mission with poor design as failures of a specific type of mission that happens to be the least forgiving of design failures."</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Yes, that a mission is fun to play doesn't excuse that it probably has poor design.  The VolitionWatch team reviewed hundreds of missions by n00bs and experienced designers alike.  Derelict was designed by people I worked with at VolitionWatch, and were well aware of my viewpoint on the need to carefully design missions to give the impression of a larger space battle without actually throwing all the elements at the player.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Design was the watchword then, and it should still be now.  That committment to design is why two missions I designed were placed in the Game of the Year edition, and a job offer at the time to join Volition for Silent Threat and FreeSpace 2.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Most daming IMO is that the reversion omits the most inescapable loss in a Battle of Endor mission -- the story.  I'm not arguing that Alpha 1 must be the "hero," but that Alpha 1's presence means they're experiencing the key turning points in a campaign.  If they're too busy to observe that set piece in a critical event, you've lost the ability to focus the players on what events they're supposed to be experiencing.</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Changing the title to "why should I make missions" is just the equivalent of trolling.</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Zarathud https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16521&oldid=prev 2008-06-22T12:40:17Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:40, 22 June 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l64">Line 64:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 64:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm? [[User:Ngtm1r|Ngtm1r]] 23:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm? [[User:Ngtm1r|Ngtm1r]] 23:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</del>*He did, if not directly: "It seems that everyone's first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty". That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*He did, if not directly: "It seems that everyone's first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty". That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:Shade|Shade]] 07:40, 22 June 2008 (CDT)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Shade https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16520&oldid=prev 2008-06-22T12:39:48Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:39, 22 June 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l63">Line 63:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 63:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm? [[User:Ngtm1r|Ngtm1r]] 23:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm? [[User:Ngtm1r|Ngtm1r]] 23:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***He did, if not directly: "It seems that everyone's first impulse upon opening up FRED is to fill all that beautiful empty space, without realizing that space is supposed to be empty". That line makes it perfectly clear to me that it is not aimed at veteran FREDders.</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Shade https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16515&oldid=prev 2008-06-22T04:08:13Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 04:08, 22 June 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l62">Line 62:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 62:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*You seem to have missed the fact that the whole VW article is aimed at inexperienced FREDders, not people who have been FREDding for years. Given that fact, everything said there makes sense. He&#039;s pointing out very real mistakes that a newcomer to FREDding is very likely to make. Also note that a BoE mission by his definition is a mission where the many capships are involved in the action around the player, not a background battle as seen in Derelict for example. And it is in such a situation that it is indeed &#039;&#039;extremely&#039;&#039; difficult to balance the mission so that the player has an effect on the outcome of the battle instead of just feeling left out. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 06:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*You seem to have missed the fact that the whole VW article is aimed at inexperienced FREDders, not people who have been FREDding for years. Given that fact, everything said there makes sense. He&#039;s pointing out very real mistakes that a newcomer to FREDding is very likely to make. Also note that a BoE mission by his definition is a mission where the many capships are involved in the action around the player, not a background battle as seen in Derelict for example. And it is in such a situation that it is indeed &#039;&#039;extremely&#039;&#039; difficult to balance the mission so that the player has an effect on the outcome of the battle instead of just feeling left out. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 06:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm? <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:Ngtm1r|Ngtm1r]] 23:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Ngtm1r https://wiki.hard-light.org/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Endor_Syndrome&diff=16514&oldid=prev 2008-06-22T04:07:56Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 04:07, 22 June 2008</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l61">Line 61:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 61:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*You seem to have missed the fact that the whole VW article is aimed at inexperienced FREDders, not people who have been FREDding for years. Given that fact, everything said there makes sense. He&#039;s pointing out very real mistakes that a newcomer to FREDding is very likely to make. Also note that a BoE mission by his definition is a mission where the many capships are involved in the action around the player, not a background battle as seen in Derelict for example. And it is in such a situation that it is indeed &#039;&#039;extremely&#039;&#039; difficult to balance the mission so that the player has an effect on the outcome of the battle instead of just feeling left out. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 06:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*You seem to have missed the fact that the whole VW article is aimed at inexperienced FREDders, not people who have been FREDding for years. Given that fact, everything said there makes sense. He&#039;s pointing out very real mistakes that a newcomer to FREDding is very likely to make. Also note that a BoE mission by his definition is a mission where the many capships are involved in the action around the player, not a background battle as seen in Derelict for example. And it is in such a situation that it is indeed &#039;&#039;extremely&#039;&#039; difficult to balance the mission so that the player has an effect on the outcome of the battle instead of just feeling left out. [[User:Shade|Shade]] 06:08, 21 June 2008 (CDT)</div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**Funny he forgot to mention who the article was directed at, then, hmm?</ins></div></td></tr> </table>

Ngtm1r